Order of the Deorc Fyre (ODF) Interview

INTERVIEW FOR THE DEVIL’S ADVOCATE MAGAZINE (WITH RON HARRIS)

1) What is the reason behind the recent name change of your organization from the Ordo Sinistra Vivendi to the Order of the Deorc Fyre?
The reason given by the current Grandmaster is as quoted: “It is felt that this more aptly describes the Order’s philosophy. When we talk of Fyre we are talking of a metaphysical Fire which is realised through Physis or the ‘unfolding’ of those qualities one would consider Satanic. This Fyre, which we term Fyre Weges or Fire of the Way, is an expression of the Western psyche: that is to say, it has specific relevance to those who are part of the Western, or European, culture. However, this is more a matter of practicalities rather than a matter of race.”

2) Why did Kerry Bolton leave the Order?

As far as the Order is concerned, this is a personal matter and the actual reasons for Bolton’s departure are not considered either necessary or appropriate for the consumption of the public. Suffice to say, it may be understood that the general gist of his resignation had much to do with differences of opinion and belief in which directions the organisation should develop and progress. Whatever has befallen and whatever the future may bring, it will not be forgotten that Kerry Bolton was the original founder of the Order -regardless of the fact that it bears virtually no similarity today to the original Order that he created in the beginning.

3) Who is the current Grand Master of the Order of the Deorc Fyre and how did he obtain this position?
The current Grandmaster is Thorsten Moar, and it has been he who has been chiefly instrumental in the continued development and unfolding of the Order. He was voted into the leadership, upon the resignation of the former magister, by the collective Priesthood and Council of the time. He was selected for the reasons that he was one of the first members of the Order, was dedicated, intelligent, creative, and possessed an obvious drive to further the Sinister Dialectic and to thereby further the cause of Satanism as it is currently promoted by the Order. In this, he has more than proved himself to be the right choice, and it may be said that his nomination was without contest from the beginning. I myself voted in his favour, having the utmost confidence in his ability -and I still hold such today.

4) What sort of projects is the ODF engaged in to further the cause of Satanism?

The Order is primarily concerned with developing the full potential of it’s members so that they are more capable of achieving higher aims in the world at large in the pursuit of the Sinister Dialectic. The current Grandmaster is constantly at work in instigating new projects to provide ideas of how this might be done. But generally, most of the Order members work on their own projects on an individual basis and of their own initiative which all collectively reap success for both themselves and the Order in the long term. In light of this, it would be difficult to give details of any particular major projects at all; of those currently being undertaken or planned all are certainly valuable and important to our continuing progress and fruition.

Suffice to say, many of such projects involve the infiltration of public entities and a range of other groups in an attempt to either sow discord or to sow the seeds of Satanic thought and ways among individuals in such collectives. We feel this is far more realistic and rewarding than open public confrontation with our opponents. You might say it’s a case of bringing down the “enemy” from within.

5) What connections are there between your organization and the Order of the Nine Angles?

The original Order went through a complete transformation after Kerry Bolton resigned his leadership. His replacement, being already very impressed with the ONA, decided that the Sinister Tradition of this particular group was the obvious means by which our aims were to be better understood and accomplished. Whereas the Order of the Left-Hand Path, perhaps like the Church of Satan, was ‘melting pot’ Satanism with no real sense of actual identity save that which it threw together from myriad sources, the Sinister Tradition offered a fully self-contained framework which was infinitely more appealing to most of the Order members of the time. However, this is not to suggest that the ODF is a “splinter group” or “by-product” of the ONA. It would be far more accurate to say that the ODF adopted a good deal of the ONA’s basic concepts (with permission) and gave them an “overhaul”. Since that time, the similarities between the two are less and less noticeable, although they both still share the fundamental basics of the Sinister Tradition. Both ONA and ODF are also a part of an unofficial “alliance” of European Satanic fronts, along with The Black Order.

6) How many members do you have?

We don’t deal in membership figures. It’s a common question but it’s not important. People tend to have a funny reaction to membership figures; but as far as the Order is concerned, we are concerned with quality -not quantity. We don’t openly ‘recruit’ nor are we interested in actively seeking members. And it would be difficult to give numbers unless one can clearly define what a “member” is. The Order deals with all sorts of people: those who directly aid us, those who support us, and those who are allied with us. We don’t need to keep records. Our “members” know who they are. At any rate, 1myselfam not privy to, nor interested in, such data. The Grandmaster alone holds that information, if any is held at all.

7) What is your opinion of Church of Satan members outside the U.S.?

We no longer have any direct dealings with the Church of Satan, either in America or abroad. This may possibly be due to incompatible views -since the Church of Satan has never expressed any love for the ONA (and vice versa) and this may have carried over to some extent to the ODF. What ties existed when Kerry Bolton was the magister (and a member ofCIS) were left to fade away when the OLHP became the OSV and proceeded in it’s new direction. Most of the members during the transition expressed disdain at CIS attitudes and ambitions, so therefore we decided to cut off from American Satanism altogether and concentrate wholly on the European side of things. I personally think much of the derision held by both ODF and ONA camps in regard to the Church of Satan stem from several factors, three of which are:

  • Some spokespersons of the CIS have continually tried to ‘monopolize’ Satanism, making absurd claims that they are the “sole/true” upholders of the Left-Hand Path. LaVey did not invent Satanism; he merely presented the first openly ‘public version’ of it in accordance with his own perceptions of how it should be manifested. Thanks to marketing, hype, and controversy, he has managed to make the CIS into a highly visible and recognised outlet for his philosophy. But just because his is the most well-known kind of Satanism doesn’t make it the only kind, nor the most valid. The ODF generally got sick and tired of hearing LaVey worshippers condemn any kind of Satanism that isn’t compatible with that of the man himself. Examples of this lie in statements that imply that unless Anton LaVey likes or plays a certain tune, it “ain’t Satanic”. Same again with his cinema and literary tastes. I myself do share some of LaVey’s tastes, by I fail to see anything particularly “Satanic” in many of them. But again, what defines “Satanic”? Anton LaVey alone? We think not.
  • The ODF and ONA also take issue with the goals of the Church of Satan -mainly because it’s believed that the CIS isn’t aiming to help mankind actually evolve, but to just exchange one state of affairs for another (ie. a Christian society for a so-called “Satanic society”). Some CIS people even seem to still believe in some sort of inane “Judgement Day” for Christianity in which Satanism will triumph over the ruin and slaughter of the Nazarene flocks. This is a pretty silly daydream. The “android” business probably receives the most derision from Sinister adherents. It seems ironic that a ‘religion’ that supposedly promotes ‘the survival of the fittest’ would want to invent such a shortcut to achievement as these ‘artificial companions’ they speak of. Surely, a Satanist would be more interested (and also satisfied) with the ‘thrill of the chase’ in seeking a partner or companion? The whole concept ofD-I-Y partners would invalidate much of what LaVey himself has given as advice on seduction! (ie. most of “The Satanic Witch”). Surely the idea of androids is in contradiction to LaVey’s own much-used adage about letting water seek it’s own level? Are they now advocating a stance of “if you’ve got what it takes, fine; it you haven’t, have this here android to compensate for your lack”. What next? Will the Church of Satan donate to famine relief in Africa because they can’t find food?

    The bottom line is really that while the CIS claims that it’s own particular brand of Satanism “accepts man as he is”, ours does not. We consider humankind these days to be generally lazy, degenerate, deluded, and/or ignorant. Laughably, LaVeyans have made a few ludicrous comments to imply that we offer some sort of idiotic daydream “ascension” for mankind in the manner of Christianity or the New Age movement. We do not. We are realists and we believe man has the potential to evolve and expand -if he can be bothered to get up off his arse and make the effort. We don’t accept man as he is -because he can be so much more. And we’re not talking about mystical or spiritual “enlightenment” here, or any other such crap -we’re talking about real evolution -the quest for self-excellence attained by learning, experience, and the wisdom gained there from to apply to one’s potential -that is the Sinister Path.

  • It is perceived that the Church of Satan still relies on Christianity to give it substance. This is especially noticeable in CIS affiliate groups like Crowley’s “Order of the Evil Eye” -the sole purpose of which is to destroy Christianity (or so it is claimed). The ONA and ODF lost all interest in anything remotely Christian years ago and pay them no heed anymore. We therefore think it unproductive to give the Christians any more due or attention than they deserve; and unless they decide to actively provoke us, we consider them to be little more than a minor nuisance. We have greater visions in mind than the “final defeat” of Christianity -that is a mere step toward greater things -not a goal in itself. At any rate, pissing off the Christians with mindless blasphemy is a completely futile act -if anything, it just gives the Nazareners more to bleat about and more to condemn us with!

Still… our opinions of the Church of Satan remain far more positive than those of its amusing little offshoot known as the Temple of Set. At least the Church of Satan possesses some redeeming qualities and individuals of merit, which is more than can be said for the latter (speaking partially from recent experience).

8) In what ways does the ODF’s Satanism differ from that of the Church of Satan’s?

It would take a small book in itself to explain the differences, and some of them were outlined perhaps in response to the previous question. It is very true that both LaVeyan Satanism and the Sinister Tradition do share some fundamental beliefs, but other than that: perceptions, preferences and methods differ quite considerably.

Perhaps the most noticeable difference is that LaVeyan Satanism is a melting pot that draws from innumerable sources of philosophy, mythology, esoterica, and other such areas of knowledge and brings them all together to be “packaged” as “Satanism”. Some have even called it “pick and choose Satanism” and not in a favourable light. Others have perceived this as just another “Americanism” the slow destruction of the value of individual and cultural identities by plucking bits out of each and throwing them into a “mixed bag” for general consumption. And such is the view of European Satanists in general.

Sinister Tradition, as aforesaid, is self-contained. It has it’s own definite and solid archetypes and focal points for whatever Satanic endeavours may be undertaken by Their names. It is also more deeply immersed in European paganism -also trying to resurrect the pagan spirit of our pre-Nazarene ancestors. There is no belief in “Evil” per se -we are amoral, like Nature Herself perhaps if such human terms can be ascribed to Her. Furthermore, unlike LaVeyan Satanism, we distance ourselves as far as possible from anything remotely Nazarene in concept or nature. None of this ridiculous “Hell” business (save in the Norse concept, but not the Christian one), or “666”, or goats, or the Templars’ “Baphomet”, or general parody of Christianity and adoption of its inventions for allegedly “Satanic” purposes. The one and only time that we generally acknowledge Christianity is in the practice of the Black Mass -but that is a rite that is rarely undertaken simply because it is very much a redundant ceremony -save in times of open and intense Nazarene oppression. As LaVey once said himself, it’s “beating a dead horse”.

Another difference of worthy note is the Sinister Tradition’s acknowledgement ofa Goddess form. Whereas LaVeyan Satanism revolves moreorless around just “Satan” (in whatever shape or form), the Sinister Tradition recognises -like the pagans of old -that the “dark force in nature” has both masculine AND feminine aspects of equal significance. In this, we recognise Satan, the Prince of Darkness, as the “masculine” polarity; and Baphomet, the Dark Goddess and Bride of Satan, as the “feminine” polarity (the name “Baphomet” being translated as “the mistress who is stained/dyed with blood” and being equated with Artemis). Furthermore, the two are Themselves seen as the “dark” aspects of Nature, having also complimenting polarities which might be termed “Light”. These are Lucifer, the Light-Bearer, as the masculine; and Gaea, the Earth Mother, as the feminine.

It may be true that LaVeyans acknowledge entities like Lilith, Kali, Hecate, or such Old World female demons and goddesses, but the point is that these rarely ever seem to share the status that Satan himself does in the CIS, and are little more than “pick and choose” products once again, depending on personal aesthetics. European Satanists have long been derisive of the LaVeyan attitude toward women, although we all know that LaVey himself is a self-confessed misogynist. Still, it is apparent from comments from Sinister adherents that they have little but scorn for the fact that (save for Blanche Barton, Peggy Nadramia etc.), women in the CIS seem to be basically “altar fodder”. Whether this is actually true or not, I am not qualified to say -and to be honest, I don’t particularly care.

9) How does one become a member of the ODF and what does the ODF expect of its members?

Currently, the Order is closed to new aspirants at the decision of the Grandmaster; and since it has been many years since I myself joined the Order, I don’t have much of an idea as to what is required of new members, should they be found desirable. This area of business is, again, primarily handled by the Grandmaster.

All members of the ODF are expected to conduct themselves in a manner befitting what we call “Satanic honour”. We have no actual “rules” in the Order, and don’t believe we need them -rules are antithecal to Satanism at any rate. We would expect that all members contribute whatever they can, where they can -what’s the point in associating with a group if you’ve no intention of helping to fulfil it’s aims? The ODF is not a social club or a penpal affair; since it’s beginnings in the reconstitution of the former OLHP, it has become a serious and ambitious organization which now has a very fine membership of intelligent, creative, and productive individuals of both sexes. We have no toleration for idiots or time-wasters, and it is most likely that a good deal of correspondence to the Order ends up quickly in the Grandmaster’s wastepaper basket. If a applicant shows potential, we take notice but we are not interested in people looking for status, membership cards, or “devil-worship” parties.

10) Could you give us a historical overview of the ODF?

The Order originated in Kerry Bolton’s original Order Of The Left-Hand Path, which was founded in New Zealand in early 1990. In 1993, Kerry resigned and the leadership was bestowed on his successor, who completely turned it on its head and reconstituted it as the Ordo Sinistra Vivendi. From this point on, the old material was rejected in favour of the Sinister Tradition of Europe, which we still uphold and pursue to this day. Furthermore, since the change, the Order has “gone underground” and maintains no public image of note (nor does it want any such image). Save for a minor presence on the Internet and a handful of mentions in other Satanic and pagan magazines, it keeps its business to itself and it’s members. The Grand Master alone gives approval for the distribution of Order information to “outsiders”.

However, what public dealings it has had in the past have been successful on virtually all fronts. As OLHP, OSV, and now ODF, the Order has remained vigilant in regards to “Satanic abuse” scares and other anti-Satanist hysteria and has furthermore responded accordingly on such occasions. Over the past few years, we have successfully battled Nazarene fundamentalists, corrupt cops, and moral watchdogs over a variety of mediums from television and radio to newspapers. Not only that, but we have on many occasions been given unbiased coverage and positive publicity from the media certainly a turn of the tide at any rate, given the usual sensationalist trash we get from the same.

11) What sort of projects are you personally involved in for the ODF in the United Kingdom?
Although I have still resided in the United Kingdom for a short time, I have already several projects in mind and in the initial stages which I aim to fulfil in the coming years. The first of these are basically infiltration projects of certain target groups which I believe Satanists of the Tradition (and the Order) could benefit from. I have also been involved in promoting European Satanism to a good deal of American neo-pagan groups who have professed sincere interest in our ways (perhaps just to learn of some alternative Satanism to Anton LaVey’s brand). On top of that, I am looking perhaps to get involved with Chris Bray’s S.A.F.F. activities in combating the persecution of “alternative religions” by politicians and clergy in the United Kingdom. Even at this time of writing, I have received word that new “Satanic abuse” propaganda is in full swing. In the long term, however, it is my interest to fully ground the ODF here in the United Kingdom as a fully-functional Satanic organisation. Along with the O.N.A. and other existing British Satanist groups, I think we’ve got a lot of work to do but I have all the confidence that we shall out in the end, with time, patience, and with persistence. Rome wasn’t built in a day, after all…

Ad gloria Satanas qui laetificat juventutem meam…

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One Response to “Order of the Deorc Fyre (ODF) Interview”

  1. Frank Ashby Says:

    What about a film which explores the Dark Side through our own sexuality? Imagine the implications of a snake-handling preacher, who studied Gnostic theology. He began his journey believing in a non-corporeal Christ as the epitome of the light and ended up at the mercy of a dominatrix, whose unorthodox form of initiation proved to be instrumental in bringing about his discovery of the hidden sun in the Land of the Dead. Check out my website at http://www.lefthandgnostic.com in which you will see a video promo of an act of Sadean debauchery as a magickal means of cultivating the True Will. Without a doubt, ” Forbidden Doors ” is a woman’s darkest fantasy and a man’s ultimate nightmare for he cannot escape the trammels of nature due to her sorcery.
    I honestly feel that ” Forbidden Doors ” is the most powerful screenplay ever written and that if it is made into a film, it will herald the coming of the Anti-Christ.

    Respectfully, Frank Ashby

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